Interview with ForestMe
During the first event of ForestMe, in April this year, Alan McSmith took us through De Stille Kern, a beautiful nature reserve near Zeewolde where you can stroll freely. During that walk he showed us how incredibly beautiful nature is: nothing is a coincidence. At the same time, his question of whether we humans add any value to the earth right now was a confronting one. Following that apparent gap between humanity and Earth, Merel van der Lande interviewed Alan for ForestMe. It became an in-depth conversation about what is needed to reconnect man with (his) nature. And as the plantain grows next to the nettle, the remedy is also very close to us. Alan: "No one is immune to feeling the connection with nature, that ultimate moment of coming home."
Interview published by Merel van Der Lande of www.forestme.nl, October 2023
According to South African wilderness guide Alan McSmith, it is important that we learn to listen again to our gut feeling, our primal instinct. A deep nature experience can help us awaken that connection to our nature that we all have.
'Let me ease into this. It will emerge.' So begins Alan McSmith's answer to the first question in our conversation. It is indicative of how he operates as a wilderness guide. Alan is not a guide who takes you into the African wilderness to spot lions, elephants and other wildlife by jeep. He goes out with a small group of people on foot (!) to look for traces of wildlife and engage in conversation about our role in the big picture. Alan: 'Actually, I'm more of a conversation starter.'
When you feel what nature is, your logic comes from a different place'
Alan has now been a wilderness guide for over 35 years. After finishing high school, he felt very strongly that he wanted to be closer to nature. Alan: 'Even as a child, I was fascinated by the interconnectedness of everything. I wanted to understand how the world was put together.' So instead of studying, Alan decided to work as a guide for photo safaris. Alan: 'At the time, that was a rather cowboy-like business with lots of beer and jeeps we used to show people the lions and elephants. There was hardly any regard for the deeper meaning of what was really going on.' Slowly but surely, Alan detached himself from that world. He started walking and tracking wildlife on foot. 'By making myself vulnerable, I began to understand something essential: I discovered that I was not just looking at a lion, an elephant or a tree.'
Every time I saw the same tree, the tree was different. As a result, I began to look beneath the surface of what I was seeing. When we only look at a tree with our eyes, we see the branches, the trunk, the leaves and maybe some roots coming up above the ground. Or we look at how much furniture or money a tree can provide. But we almost never look at the part hidden from us, while a tree lives largely underground. Without that hidden component, that tree could not exist. Below ground, trees are interconnected: they exchange nutrients, information and energy. So you could call what happens underground a form of consciousness, of intelligence. It may not be intellect, but there is a lot of intelligence going on under the ground. And that applies to a lot of things. The moment you go to the unseen, to that which is normally hidden or silent from us, then the information we get becomes very interesting.'
What information do we receive?
'I believe we can receive information on three levels.The first is through our intuition: our primal instinct or gut feeling, the feeling that we know something before we notice it with our senses.The second level is through our heart, our emotions. And the third through our brain, our logic. To arrive at the best choices for the well-being of yourself and those around you, receiving information should happen in that order: you feel something from your intuition, your heart filters that information and your brain hopefully makes the right choice based on that.
In the modern Western world, however, we almost exclusively use our logic to make decisions.At best, we still filter that information through our heart: we feel emotion, try to soften it or add some superficial awareness.But only when we also use our intuition, the sense organ invisible to us, do we receive all the information we need.
Nature reawakens this natural process of receiving information in us. When you are in nature, your primal instinct awakens. Then you discover what nature actually means. It is not a place where you go to spot birds or wildlife.It is us. Nature is in us and we are in nature. So we cannot separate the well-being of nature from our own well-being. Once you feel that, you start thinking about things differently. And I think that is at the heart of what I do: creating space for people to come home to themselves. That may be simply put, but when you feel what nature is and understand that we are intensely connected, your logic comes from a different place. That is the tipping point I try to bring about as a wilderness guide.'
Why is it important that our logic comes from a different place?
'I believe we are spiritual beings with a body. Intuitive beings with logic. And I don't think the two can be separated. Our generation has the most developed intellect on the planet, lives the most comfortable life ever, but for that we pay a high price. If you look at the number of people taking antidepressants, suffering from heart disease and experiencing daily stress, I think our generation is definitely not the happiest. In addition, the planet bears the consequences of our comfortable lives. Nature is degraded because we use almost only our brains and bypass our gut feeling, our primal connection to nature that we all have.'
How can we restore that connection?
'By letting go of our logical brain. And that is a challenge. Our brains tell us every day to strive for power, wealth and possessions - all ego-driven goals. It's certainly not that I want to romanticise poverty, because money can absolutely contribute to a happy life. But for our own well-being and that of the planet, we will all have to start living less comfortably together. For our logical brain, this is a mega problem, because we think that our well-being will then be at risk. While money or power cannot give us what we deeply desire, which is to give our lives meaning and experience a sense of peace, tranquillity and connection with our environment. We want to feel that we matter, that we belong and that everything is okay.
But the great paradox of our lives is that the most meaningful thing we strive for can simultaneously be the most difficult and challenging. After all, that state of consciousness is neither visible nor logical, and you will have to go to a part of yourself that is vulnerable for it. We are inspired to walk that path, but we often have to go through mud, pain to actually find it. And when we cannot find what we deeply long for, our shadows come up. We project these onto others and others will mirror our fears, anger and frustration. Then you end up in conflicts from which no one comes out unscathed. That is why it is important to have a guide to help you find your path. For me, nature was that guide. In nature, we are all welcome, no matter how much we earn, what education we have received, what we have and have not done. Nature is always a clean slate. And that is what we want deep down. So I am convinced that without nature, we cannot fulfil our most fundamental desire.'
As a guide, how do you help bring about that tipping point of "coming home to yourself"?
'Let me start by saying that the tipping point is not something you work towards, it is not a goal. It is a state of consciousness that is always there and to which we can always connect. Nature can help us do that. In a "deep dive", that coming home happens almost automatically. A beautiful sunset or an encounter with a lion or elephant can be a deeply humbling experience. Then you become inclusive, part of a bigger picture. And that is the gateway to that other state of consciousness.
Such an experience makes you fully in the present moment, time stops. And in that moment you are fully with yourself and experience stillness and peace, the ultimate longing we are all looking for. Sometimes in such a moment, I would drop to the floor and roll up into a foetal position while crying uncontrollably. But they were tears of joy and gratitude. Such an experience makes you realise that without the well-being of our natural world, we are not meaningful, fulfilled, creative, innovative and beautiful people. Because then we miss our mirror, our source of inspiration. This may be elusive to people stuck in the system, but no one is immune to feeling the connection with nature, that ultimate moment of coming home.'
What is the impact of such a deep experience?
'It often gives a different perspective on life. For example, when we came across a lion on a walk, a woman asked: doesn't that lion want to eat us? And I heard myself say: 'Well no. Why would that lion want to eat you? What's so important about you?" And she looked at me and said, "Wow, that puts things in perspective!" We humans are ecologically insignificant. We do not play a key role in nature. Without us, nature manages just fine, but without, say, bees, flies or worms, nature does not manage. Accepting that insignificance is a big challenge for many people, but if you dare to experience that humility, it can also give a lot of peace and confidence.
Besides, a different kind of conversation emerges after such an experience. If a group of eight people experience that moment of coming home at the same time, no conversation arises from our logical brain. Once the coast is safe again, most start laughing a little nervously at first. But soon a conversation emerges from the heart about feelings, connection and things that really matter.
At such a moment, the primal instinct and the heart also take part in the conversation. And you need that to come to a balanced decision. That is also what I employ in natural leadership. A fruitful conversation is not about talking, but listening. Normally, business people sit around a table in a meeting room. Because they look at each other, they see each other as part of the solution. As a result, at the end of the meeting, you have a decision based on the strongest ego. Such a conversation can never be an outcome or a solution because you miss fundamental information. If you meet while walking in nature, the conversation will be very different. Instead of looking at each other, you look in front of you at the path, at a possible solution, and you listen to the other person. Then it becomes a process where outcomes or solutions can emerge, without that being the goal.
Is that the way to tackle major crises like the climate crisis?
'Having conversations from the heart is perhaps the only thing we can do. For our logical brain, however, that is not a great answer. But we don't have an answer either. Because how can you know what the answer is when you are ecologically insignificant and, moreover, part of the problem?
You see, the real uncomfortable truth, namely the fact that too many people live on earth, is non-negotiable. So all we can do then is let go of the answer. Because when we attach ourselves to finding an answer, we attach ourselves to the process. Then we start directing the process from our brain and in doing so, we don't solve it because we ourselves are part of the problem. So the questions are logical, but the answers lie in the illogical, the unseen. The answer must arise collectively and naturally through conversations between people talking from their guts and hearts.
All we can do is live consciously, be alert, make ourselves available to the unseen and surrender to the process. Then the need to find a solution disappears.'
Do you experience the feeling of coming home to yourself every day?
'Haha, no! I don't have super powers. I am as cursed with my intellect as any other human being. But the more often you connect with that natural state of consciousness, the easier it is to return. When I walk a path that doesn't make sense, that doesn't resonate, I get restless. For me, that is the signal that I need to go outside. Walking awakens the connection with my primal instinct and brings me back home to myself.'
During the first event of ForestMe, in April this year, Alan McSmith took us through De Stille Kern, a beautiful nature reserve near Zeewolde where you can stroll freely. During that walk he showed us how incredibly beautiful nature is: nothing is a coincidence. At the same time, his question of whether we humans add any value to the earth right now was a confronting one. Following that apparent gap between humanity and Earth, Merel van der Lande interviewed Alan for ForestMe. It became an in-depth conversation about what is needed to reconnect man with (his) nature. And as the plantain grows next to the nettle, the remedy is also very close to us. Alan: "No one is immune to feeling the connection with nature, that ultimate moment of coming home."
Interview published by Merel van Der Lande of www.forestme.nl, October 2023
According to South African wilderness guide Alan McSmith, it is important that we learn to listen again to our gut feeling, our primal instinct. A deep nature experience can help us awaken that connection to our nature that we all have.
'Let me ease into this. It will emerge.' So begins Alan McSmith's answer to the first question in our conversation. It is indicative of how he operates as a wilderness guide. Alan is not a guide who takes you into the African wilderness to spot lions, elephants and other wildlife by jeep. He goes out with a small group of people on foot (!) to look for traces of wildlife and engage in conversation about our role in the big picture. Alan: 'Actually, I'm more of a conversation starter.'
When you feel what nature is, your logic comes from a different place'
Alan has now been a wilderness guide for over 35 years. After finishing high school, he felt very strongly that he wanted to be closer to nature. Alan: 'Even as a child, I was fascinated by the interconnectedness of everything. I wanted to understand how the world was put together.' So instead of studying, Alan decided to work as a guide for photo safaris. Alan: 'At the time, that was a rather cowboy-like business with lots of beer and jeeps we used to show people the lions and elephants. There was hardly any regard for the deeper meaning of what was really going on.' Slowly but surely, Alan detached himself from that world. He started walking and tracking wildlife on foot. 'By making myself vulnerable, I began to understand something essential: I discovered that I was not just looking at a lion, an elephant or a tree.'
Every time I saw the same tree, the tree was different. As a result, I began to look beneath the surface of what I was seeing. When we only look at a tree with our eyes, we see the branches, the trunk, the leaves and maybe some roots coming up above the ground. Or we look at how much furniture or money a tree can provide. But we almost never look at the part hidden from us, while a tree lives largely underground. Without that hidden component, that tree could not exist. Below ground, trees are interconnected: they exchange nutrients, information and energy. So you could call what happens underground a form of consciousness, of intelligence. It may not be intellect, but there is a lot of intelligence going on under the ground. And that applies to a lot of things. The moment you go to the unseen, to that which is normally hidden or silent from us, then the information we get becomes very interesting.'
What information do we receive?
'I believe we can receive information on three levels.The first is through our intuition: our primal instinct or gut feeling, the feeling that we know something before we notice it with our senses.The second level is through our heart, our emotions. And the third through our brain, our logic. To arrive at the best choices for the well-being of yourself and those around you, receiving information should happen in that order: you feel something from your intuition, your heart filters that information and your brain hopefully makes the right choice based on that.
In the modern Western world, however, we almost exclusively use our logic to make decisions.At best, we still filter that information through our heart: we feel emotion, try to soften it or add some superficial awareness.But only when we also use our intuition, the sense organ invisible to us, do we receive all the information we need.
Nature reawakens this natural process of receiving information in us. When you are in nature, your primal instinct awakens. Then you discover what nature actually means. It is not a place where you go to spot birds or wildlife.It is us. Nature is in us and we are in nature. So we cannot separate the well-being of nature from our own well-being. Once you feel that, you start thinking about things differently. And I think that is at the heart of what I do: creating space for people to come home to themselves. That may be simply put, but when you feel what nature is and understand that we are intensely connected, your logic comes from a different place. That is the tipping point I try to bring about as a wilderness guide.'
Why is it important that our logic comes from a different place?
'I believe we are spiritual beings with a body. Intuitive beings with logic. And I don't think the two can be separated. Our generation has the most developed intellect on the planet, lives the most comfortable life ever, but for that we pay a high price. If you look at the number of people taking antidepressants, suffering from heart disease and experiencing daily stress, I think our generation is definitely not the happiest. In addition, the planet bears the consequences of our comfortable lives. Nature is degraded because we use almost only our brains and bypass our gut feeling, our primal connection to nature that we all have.'
How can we restore that connection?
'By letting go of our logical brain. And that is a challenge. Our brains tell us every day to strive for power, wealth and possessions - all ego-driven goals. It's certainly not that I want to romanticise poverty, because money can absolutely contribute to a happy life. But for our own well-being and that of the planet, we will all have to start living less comfortably together. For our logical brain, this is a mega problem, because we think that our well-being will then be at risk. While money or power cannot give us what we deeply desire, which is to give our lives meaning and experience a sense of peace, tranquillity and connection with our environment. We want to feel that we matter, that we belong and that everything is okay.
But the great paradox of our lives is that the most meaningful thing we strive for can simultaneously be the most difficult and challenging. After all, that state of consciousness is neither visible nor logical, and you will have to go to a part of yourself that is vulnerable for it. We are inspired to walk that path, but we often have to go through mud, pain to actually find it. And when we cannot find what we deeply long for, our shadows come up. We project these onto others and others will mirror our fears, anger and frustration. Then you end up in conflicts from which no one comes out unscathed. That is why it is important to have a guide to help you find your path. For me, nature was that guide. In nature, we are all welcome, no matter how much we earn, what education we have received, what we have and have not done. Nature is always a clean slate. And that is what we want deep down. So I am convinced that without nature, we cannot fulfil our most fundamental desire.'
As a guide, how do you help bring about that tipping point of "coming home to yourself"?
'Let me start by saying that the tipping point is not something you work towards, it is not a goal. It is a state of consciousness that is always there and to which we can always connect. Nature can help us do that. In a "deep dive", that coming home happens almost automatically. A beautiful sunset or an encounter with a lion or elephant can be a deeply humbling experience. Then you become inclusive, part of a bigger picture. And that is the gateway to that other state of consciousness.
Such an experience makes you fully in the present moment, time stops. And in that moment you are fully with yourself and experience stillness and peace, the ultimate longing we are all looking for. Sometimes in such a moment, I would drop to the floor and roll up into a foetal position while crying uncontrollably. But they were tears of joy and gratitude. Such an experience makes you realise that without the well-being of our natural world, we are not meaningful, fulfilled, creative, innovative and beautiful people. Because then we miss our mirror, our source of inspiration. This may be elusive to people stuck in the system, but no one is immune to feeling the connection with nature, that ultimate moment of coming home.'
What is the impact of such a deep experience?
'It often gives a different perspective on life. For example, when we came across a lion on a walk, a woman asked: doesn't that lion want to eat us? And I heard myself say: 'Well no. Why would that lion want to eat you? What's so important about you?" And she looked at me and said, "Wow, that puts things in perspective!" We humans are ecologically insignificant. We do not play a key role in nature. Without us, nature manages just fine, but without, say, bees, flies or worms, nature does not manage. Accepting that insignificance is a big challenge for many people, but if you dare to experience that humility, it can also give a lot of peace and confidence.
Besides, a different kind of conversation emerges after such an experience. If a group of eight people experience that moment of coming home at the same time, no conversation arises from our logical brain. Once the coast is safe again, most start laughing a little nervously at first. But soon a conversation emerges from the heart about feelings, connection and things that really matter.
At such a moment, the primal instinct and the heart also take part in the conversation. And you need that to come to a balanced decision. That is also what I employ in natural leadership. A fruitful conversation is not about talking, but listening. Normally, business people sit around a table in a meeting room. Because they look at each other, they see each other as part of the solution. As a result, at the end of the meeting, you have a decision based on the strongest ego. Such a conversation can never be an outcome or a solution because you miss fundamental information. If you meet while walking in nature, the conversation will be very different. Instead of looking at each other, you look in front of you at the path, at a possible solution, and you listen to the other person. Then it becomes a process where outcomes or solutions can emerge, without that being the goal.
Is that the way to tackle major crises like the climate crisis?
'Having conversations from the heart is perhaps the only thing we can do. For our logical brain, however, that is not a great answer. But we don't have an answer either. Because how can you know what the answer is when you are ecologically insignificant and, moreover, part of the problem?
You see, the real uncomfortable truth, namely the fact that too many people live on earth, is non-negotiable. So all we can do then is let go of the answer. Because when we attach ourselves to finding an answer, we attach ourselves to the process. Then we start directing the process from our brain and in doing so, we don't solve it because we ourselves are part of the problem. So the questions are logical, but the answers lie in the illogical, the unseen. The answer must arise collectively and naturally through conversations between people talking from their guts and hearts.
All we can do is live consciously, be alert, make ourselves available to the unseen and surrender to the process. Then the need to find a solution disappears.'
Do you experience the feeling of coming home to yourself every day?
'Haha, no! I don't have super powers. I am as cursed with my intellect as any other human being. But the more often you connect with that natural state of consciousness, the easier it is to return. When I walk a path that doesn't make sense, that doesn't resonate, I get restless. For me, that is the signal that I need to go outside. Walking awakens the connection with my primal instinct and brings me back home to myself.'